DAN
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. My name is Daniel H. Gillison Jr. and I’m the CEO of NAMI. We started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. And it starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories and hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you are a loved one and struggling with the mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that with each episode, with each conversation, brings you into that collective so you know you are not alone.
DAN
Today, I’m joined by an incredible leader who I heard their story first on NPR. And I’ve been eagerly waiting for the chance to talk with him. For our podcast, Hope Starts With Us. This is a man who has shared his story of experiencing late onset bipolar disorder while serving as a leader in the military. These days, he uses his time advocating for mental health access and reducing the stigma associated with mental illnesses as someone who has served in the military. Major General Gregg F. Martin retired from the military after a decorated career and is now a mental health advocate and author of “Bipolar General, My Forever War with Mental Illness.” This book explores his career as a military leader and eventual diagnosis of bipolar disorder later in life, as well as what can be done within and outside of the military to diagnose and treat mental illness.
DAN
Thank you, Gregg, for joining us today to share your story in your journey, becoming a mental health advocate, changing the narrative about mental health and serving in the military. And as we begin this, you know, I come from a military family. I’ve mentioned that my father was a paratrooper, my brother was a paratrooper. So this is personal and professional for me. And it’s just so amazing for you to be with us and share your story. So why don’t we begin there and say, why don’t you share who you are, what you’ve done and why you’ve become this mental health advocate?
GREGG
Well, thanks, Dan. It’s really a pleasure to be on. And I love NAMI, who you are, what you do. You have such an important mission and do such great work. A little bit about me. I was born just outside of Boston. And my entire life, I was an overachiever as a student athlete and leader. So I excelled in high school, went to West Point, graduated over the top of my class, Army Ranger School, Airborne School. And then I went out in the Army and fell in love with leading soldiers, just absolutely relished in a tough, challenging, dangerous mission. And so I rose rapidly in the ranks, all the way from second lieutenant over a period of decades up to two-star general.
GREGG
What I didn’t know was that I had a condition called hyperthymia. I learned about it when I was writing my book. And what hyperthymia is, it’s a near continuous low-level mania, which means my brain produced and distributed excess amounts of key chemicals like dopamine, endorphins, which gave me extra energy, drive, enthusiasm, creativity, problem-solving skills. So that was a real blessing to have that condition. But the problem with hyperthymia is that over the years, it gradually creeps up this bipolar spectrum until you actually have your bipolar onset, which is what happened to me. And so I was doing great in the Army, very successful. And during the Iraq War, I was a brigade commander, leading more than 10,000 troops in combat, fierce combat, really challenging position.
GREGG
And so according to the VA and the Army Medical Department, it was the stress, the euphoria, the pressure, the thrill of leading troops in combat that triggered my genetic predisposition for bipolar disorder. And so when we attacked from Kuwait into Iraq with thousands of troops, very dangerous situation, a real enemy that was out to kill us, not just training anymore, that that triggered my genetic predisposition. I shot into mania, but it was a high-performing mania that enhanced my performance with more energy drive. I was able to anticipate and see problems on the battlefield and solve them creatively before anybody else knew there was a problem. I felt like Superman. I felt bulletproof, was all over the battlefield, checking the troops, making it happen, leading from the front. And so the year in Iraq went great during a really bloody, intense year of combat.
GREGG
But when I went home to Germany, to our home station, I crashed into a 10 month depression. I knew there was something wrong. And so I went to medical screening, went to the doctor, and said, “Hey, I’m usually high-energy, enthusiastic. Now I’m withdrawn. I have no energy. I’m confused. I’m indecisive. I’ve lost interest in everything. You know, there’s something wrong with me.” And they evaluated me and said, “No, there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re fine.” And then over the next 11 years, I went into higher levels of mania, lower levels of depression. It was unknown, unrecognized, undiagnosed. Until 2014, which was 10 years ago, I went into full-blown mania, which is really, for me, it was a state of madness or insanity, completely out of control, over the top.
GREGG
I go into great detail in the book on all kinds of episodes, but then it drew attention. And essentially, people reported my behavior to my boss, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who made the decision that I needed to get terminated in this command. It was really a key job. And so I went into his office. He said, “Report to my office 10 o’clock Monday morning.” I went in and he said, “Gregg, I love you like a brother.” He gave me a big hug. This was General Marty Dempsey. I had worked for him four times. And he said, “I give you an A-plus for your performance. Nobody could have done what you did. Fantastic job. But your time at National Defense University is over. You have until 5 PM today to resign, or I will fire you. And I’m ordering you to go get a psychiatric evaluation at Walter Reed. What are your questions?” And I said, “Sir, I have no questions. This is great news. I’m so manic.” I said, “God put me here to do big things. Now he’s going to put me somewhere else to do bigger things.” And 10 years later, I was actually correct because I’m doing the most important work of my life now with mental health advocacy.
GREGG
Then from there, I crashed into terrible crippling depression, terrifying psychosis, retired from the Army, was hospitalized at a great VA hospital. They really helped to save me along with my wife and other friends. And then about eight years ago, I got on the right combination of medicines, primarily lithium, but also Lymictil and Rotuda. And I started my journey of recovery eight years ago, moved to Florida, and life has been really, really good. I have had some blips, some ups and downs, but they’ve been moderate. And so no relapse. So I’m loving life, have a great purpose. The pain led to purpose, led to passion, led to power. And I quote you on that one. Take the power. You get the footnote from Dan Gillison.
DAN
Thank you. Thank you, General. You’ve told me many times to call you Gregg, but I also want to be respectful of your service. And we at NAMI are so appreciative of military service that I begin every presentation and I make by recognizing and acknowledging anyone in the audience that has served in the military. So General, I may toggle in our conversation between General and Greg. So let me go back to Gregg for a second. And you just had a stellar career in reading your book and looking at, as you mentioned, just your matriculation. It’s just incredible, your success and all of your accomplishments. You don’t have to do this. You don’t have to share your story. Why are you deciding that you want to share your story at this station of life?
GREGG
Well, I actually believe it’s a mission from God. I never wanted bipolar disorder, but it wanted me. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, but it happened. And so I went through this hellacious experience where bipolar disorder helped me enhance my performance for years and decades until it went too high and then it brought me crashing down. And so as a result of this experience, one of the things that we’re really trained on in the Army, in the military, is when you go through a severe, intense experience, you have an obligation to share it with other people so that the other units, the other troops, the other members of the organization can gain from it.
GREGG
So I said, OK, I went through hell. Bipolar disorder ended my military career, and it nearly killed me. I mean, I almost died. I was suicidal. And so I’m going to tell this story because I said, I’m not going to be stigmatized. I’m not going to let it happen. Not going to be ashamed. Not going to be embarrassed. I’m going to tell this story full open candor and hope that it will help other people by sharing my lessons learned. And maybe it will serve as an inspiration and give other people hope that they too can recover and get better.
DAN
Well, that’s what this podcast is all about, hope. And that’s why we labeled it and titled it, Hope Starts With Us. So as you share your voice and your story, what are you hoping for other veterans as you– and not just veterans, but the communities as a whole. But let’s just talk about your community of military. What do you hope that other military personnel will glean from you sharing your story?
GREGG
Well, I hope that military personnel, veterans, and the general population would take mental health seriously, get educated, get smart on the various types of mental illness and mental health conditions, learn what the most common symptoms are, and then serve as a battle buddy, which is a military term, or a peer support specialist for their partners. And keep an eye on them and watch out for them. And if they notice changes in behavior that look like the symptoms of some sort of a mental illness, talk to them in an encouraging, compassionate way and say, hey, look, I really care about you. Here’s what I’m seeing.
GREGG
Let’s go visit the mental health people. And oh, by the way, I’ll go with you and be your partner as we go through this, because I know it’s kind of scary. And then take people in to get evaluated. And then talk to them about the reality of mental illness, that it is physiological. It is biological. It’s not due to a lack of character. It’s not the afflicted person’s fault. It’s not because they’re not trying hard enough. And so there shouldn’t be a stigma. And so if they feel one, they really need to just own it and say, I’m going to own this. And I’m not going to let it affect me and bother me and pull me down.
GREGG
So then I would say, look, if there’s nothing wrong and the doctors say you’re fine, well, that’s good news. But if they do say there’s something wrong, you have two choices. You can either follow what the doctor says or not. And if you don’t, there’s a good chance your life will end in destruction. It could ruin your marriage, your family, your career, your finances. It could lead to addictions, homelessness, prison, and death. That’s if you don’t follow what the medical professionals say. But if you do follow what they say, there’s every probability that you’ll be able to live a happy, healthy, purposeful life and fulfill your ambitions and your dreams.
DAN
Well, you just talked about– and you are an example of recovery and resilience. So you’re demonstrating it and showing it every day. You mentioned family, but you also mentioned the battle buddy. And almost like the peer– you also said peer specialist. And that’s NAMI’s model, nothing about us without us. And we talk about the peers and how important that peer is. Because I see someone across from me that has the same experience as me. And I can relate. So as you talk about that battle buddy, that’s so important. As we look at how important– let me transition to family. Family is always front and center as you shared that story. It’s threaded through your story. And you dedicated the book to Maggie. How important has family been in your manifestation of where you are and where you’re going?
GREGG
Family has been absolutely critical. My family is the bedrock. And the rock of rocks is my wife Maggie, who happens to be an army brat born in the army. Army wife married to me and an army mom with two sons in the army. But she was phenomenal. She learned about bipolar disorder. So she got educated, which was great. We talked about it. She was encouraging. And she also pushed me. And she didn’t give me a free ride because she knew that having a structured life with a routine is one of the most important things for overcoming mental illness and especially bipolar disorder, the depression aspect of it.
GREGG
And so I gave the example yesterday when I started going to the VA, she knew I wanted to recover. She knew that I had– that I wanted to get better and that I liked the VA and I liked my doctors. And I’d say, Maggie, can you give me a ride to the hospital? And it was about 60 miles away. And she said, no, I’m not going to give you a ride because I know you can drive yourself. And it would be good for you to drive yourself to the place and do it on your own without me holding your hand. And that’s just one example of many where she pushed me further than I would have gone on my own. And it was really very, very helpful. And I actually got to the point where I started looking forward to my drives to the VA.
GREGG
And then we’ve also got two sons who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So we really are kind of a bipolar family. I’m the bipolar general, but we’re a family. And the two sons have bipolar type 2. And I have bipolar type 1. And so we all have learned about it. We talk about it. We support each other. Maggie’s very helpful. And then our middle son, who’s still on active duty, he does not have any known mental illness. And he knows about it, though. And he also is supportive. He’s not a stigmatizer. And so I would just say that the family has been absolutely critical. I would not be where I am without my family.
DAN
That is fantastic. And I’m going to give a shout out to Maggie. Kudos to you, Maggie, for making Gregg drive. And it’s so important to establish that discipline of rote behavior in terms of things that you can do consistently as you’re navigating it. As we talk about this and you learn about NAMI, what would you challenge us to do, General?
GREGG
Well, I think NAMI is a fantastic organization. This is my first NAMI event. But I mean, you are a great leader with a vision, with a strategy, and really making a huge difference. I mean, your imprint on the organization is amazing. And you’ve got a team of professionals who are enthusiastic, they’re friendly, they’re organized, they’re efficient. And so you’ve got a great team. And then I know it works from national level down to state level, all the way down to the bottom grassroots. And I think that’s a great model to get down where the rubber meets the road and help people.
GREGG
The one thing that I think you guys could probably make the most progress and get the most bang for the buck, you’re already doing it. But it’s building this team of teams by connecting dots with all the other groups and organizations and universities, medical professionals, other nonprofits, professional organizations, and just building those networks, making them stronger, increasing the communication, collaboration, communication, cooperation. I think that’s where you could probably get the most bang for your buck. And I know you’re already doing that.
DAN
All right, thank you. So as we think about this, my forever war with mental illness, you explore your career as a military leader living with an undiagnosed mental illness and how you came to seek help for your symptoms. Why do you think it took so long as it did for you to receive a diagnosis and find the truth? Because you had mentioned 11 years before and then it took this. So what happened there?
GREGG
So there’s a number of factors that delayed diagnosis. First off, I was very, very successful. And my personality only changed incrementally over the years. So right from the start, I had a lot of enthusiasm, energy drive, and so forth. I was an extrovert, the life of the party, athlete, all that stuff. And so somebody watching me, including Maggie, the changes were so small, they were virtually imperceptible until I went into full blown mania. So back it up, my onset was in 2003, I was 47 years old during the Iraq War.
GREGG
So an 11 year period where it was unrecognized, undiagnosed. So there were a couple of reasons. Number one, I was very successful. So when people and the doctors looked at me, they saw high ranking officer, PhD from MIT, successful battlefield commander. And they said, there’s nothing wrong with this guy. He’s perfectly healthy, he’s success. This is what we want our army officers to be like. So they just couldn’t see it. The second thing is the military medical people, they don’t wanna hurt a high ranking successful officer. So even if they did have suspicions, they kept them down and they suppressed them. The third thing is I was around thousands of people over the years who many of them probably said, hey, this guy has some odd behavior characteristics, especially when I was in mania and also when I was in depression.
GREGG
And, but they didn’t know what they were seeing. And the reason is they weren’t trained. They didn’t know what the symptoms of mania were or the symptoms of depression because they hadn’t been trained on it. The next thing is that in these military commands, you move every one or two years. So you’re not there long enough for people to really recognize that there’s something wrong. And once you leave, people forget about you and they focus on the next leader.
GREGG
And then the other thing is a number of the troops have told me, they said, we loved working for you. It was always exciting. We were achieving big things. We didn’t wanna lose you. And so because the next guy who came in might not have your energy and your drive and vision. So a lot of them who maybe suspected something didn’t say anything.
GREGG
And then the other thing, it’s really hard to give that kind of bad news to a two-star general. It’s really hard. And what broke the ice and really finally got me the help I needed was I was so manic, this idea of full blow mania, that the students, the faculty, the administrators started writing anonymous letters to my boss, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. And he took this all in, in very fair person. He did a number of assessments to evaluate, hey, what’s going on with Gregg? And he came to the conclusion that there was something going on mentally and emotionally with me and that it was so disruptive. He had to pull me out of there, which was not an easy decision for him. But in pulling me out, he probably saved my life.
GREGG
I’ve had a bunch of doctors say that the mania could have killed me. The depression could have led to suicide and the stress on my organs could have led to a stroke or a heart attack. So General Dempsey really did me and Maggie a big favor of getting me out of that pressure cooker.
GREGG
And then what finally led to the diagnosis, it was really interesting, General Dempsey ordered me to get a psych eval. And I went in three different times in full blown mania and the doctor said, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with you. And then they sent those reports to the Pentagon and the Pentagon read them and said, you’re wrong. Do another evaluation.
GREGG
And then from there, I spiraled and crashed into crippling hopeless depression. And then I went back on my own in November of 2014, went back to the same doctors and said, there’s something wrong with me. I mean, I am so depressed, I can barely function. And this is key. They got collateral information from Maggie because they hadn’t done that before. And that’s a big thing that they can improve on is to bring in spouse, family, friends, work colleagues and get a 360 degree perspective. But so when I went back in this terrible depression, Maggie said, well, the doctor said, well, you’re depressed. I said, yeah, I know. And Maggie said, but before when you evaluate before, he was manic.
GREGG
And then the lights went on for the doctor and it was Maggie with collateral information that basically enabled them to see, aha, bipolar disorder. And right there on that day, I thanked and hugged the doctor and said, thank you, because I knew there was something wrong with me, but I didn’t know what it was. And now you’ve given me a target with a face on it that I can do battle with and strive to get better.
DAN
I can now navigate and manage it because it has a name and I can do something with it. You know, I read in the book, several of the compliments from all of these military leaders, starting with General Dempsey, it must have been so hard from a peer standpoint, that the peers, they don’t wanna tell, hey, you need to do something. How is the military coming along in there being able to help each other?
DAN
The whole point of being in the military is to be strong and to actually be the protector for everyone else. And many times at the cost of their own protection. And I’m looking at it, General, from the wonderful compliments. And I’m also thinking about those as your colleagues and many of them going to war with you. It had to have been tough for them to say, hey buddy, there’s something that’s not here. There’s something that’s different. As you’ve now kind of interacted with them, have they said anything to you from the standpoint of, just as friends in terms of what they’ve seen?
GREGG
It’s been overwhelmingly positive and encouraging and grateful. Because everybody in the military knows that there are problems, that there are people, including all the way up to the highest levels, who have mental health conditions, who are struggling with depression or PTSD or traumatic brain injury or bipolar disorder or what have you. And so everybody knows it’s out there, but as you said, to admit that you have weakness goes against the military culture, which is be strong. Look at the army slogan, army strong. Nobody admits there’s a problem because you have to be the tough guy all the time.
GREGG
But the people who wrote the comments in the book, every single one was overwhelmingly positive. They said, man, I admire you and really, I think you are brave and courageous for coming out and doing this. And it’s gonna help lots and lots of people in the military veterans and the general population. And so overwhelmingly positive. Now there were people who I sought recommendations from, who either ignored the email and didn’t answer or said, no, I’m not gonna send one in. And you can fill in the blank, whatever they were thinking. So they may be people who really don’t believe the fact that mental illness is biological and physiological and think, okay, Martin just, wimped out near the end of his career. And so, I mean, that’s fine because that’s sort of the nature of the stigma. And I mean, I’m doing my best to educate people on it and help them to understand the reality, but, and that doesn’t bother me at all.
GREGG
And I talk, I’ve given lots of talks and so forth. So I’m just grateful for all the people who recognize me coming out and being honest that it was a really good positive thing. That’s wonderful. I would say also in the military, since 9-11, this 20 year war, the military has come light years in terms of understanding, training and resourcing mental health issues. We used to separate people for depression, PTSD and all these different conditions. Now the military does everything they can to accommodate people within the requirements of military duty and service, which is a huge step forward.
GREGG
But the problem is there’s still a stigma in the military. So even though the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of the Army and the generals all have this, they believe, hey, we have this great policy, there shouldn’t be any stigma, anybody can come forward. But as you go from the top down the chain of command to where the rubber meets the road, the soldiers inside of a squad or a sailor, the bottom of a ship, they hear it. They hear what the top brass is saying, but they don’t believe it because at their level, they still see stigma. So what the military needs is a cultural change from bottom to top so that people will really accept and have confidence that they will be taken care of and it won’t hurt them to be honest and come forward. And that takes time to change the culture.
DAN
It does take time. And, but it’s beginning right now and it’s beginning with what you’re doing. And we just talked about stigma and I’m thinking about where we were a few minutes ago, talking about your house, your family, it’s stigma free. Right. And, but that’s, you worked for it to be stigma free. Yes. If you were coaching any other military family or any family in terms of how to reduce stigma in their thinking, what would you suggest to them in general?
GREGG
I would say to think about it. If one of your children or a family member had diabetes or cancer or heart disease or a broken leg or some other medical condition, you wouldn’t blame them for the problem. You would say, hey, I love you, I wanna help you, I wanna get you the best medical care I can, I’ll stick with you through thick and thin, I’m gonna help you get better. It’s not your fault, you didn’t cause it, it’s a biological condition inside your brain. It’s really, it’s like bipolar disorder is an illness in the brain. And so we’re gonna help you get better and let me know how you all stick with you, let me know how you’re doing, what else I can do. I would be very compassionate and caring and very supportive with regard to say their school work and things like that and talk to the school team to make accommodations for the child or if they’re in college or whatever to help them through. So those are just a few things.
DAN
It’s amazing how you connected this, Gregg, from the standpoint of think about diabetes, think about the other diseases that no one, you’re not blamed for it, but you’re blamed for the condition from the neck up. Thank you for sharing that. And as we wrap this up, this is the beginning of our relationship and our work. We just wanna thank you for sharing your story and for bringing all of the information to us. And as I close this out, I wanna go back to the title of the book and make sure that we have that labeled here as we do this. And that is Bipolar General, My Forever War with Mental Illness. And thank you for doing battle and actually helping us get rid of this stigma. Appreciate you.
GREGG
Well, thanks, Dan. It’s been a real honor and a pleasure to be on with you. And again, I just wanna encourage and thank you for everything that you and NAMI are doing to make a real difference and to give people hope, which is the biggest thing.
DAN
Yes, yes, it is, thank you. All right, Dan, thanks.
This has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. If you are looking for mental health resources, you’re not alone. To connect with the NAMI helpline and find local resources, visit nami.org/help, text helpline to 62640 or dial 800-950-6264 or NAMI. Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide substance use or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with the trained support specialist or visit 988-lifeline.org. This has been NAMI’s podcast. My name is Dan Gillison. Thank you for listening and thank you for watching.
