00:00:00:02 – 00:00:18:01
Dr. Joseph
I very rarely learn about the forefathers and foresisters that look like us who were in mental health. The person who did most of the research on dementia was a Black man. Why weren’t we taught this? We’ve always been here. We have not always been celebrated or acknowledged, but we’ve always been here. So mental health is ours, too.
00:00:18:03 – 00:00:46:11
Dan
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I’m your host, Dan Gillison, NAMI’s CEO. NAMI started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
00:00:46:13 – 00:01:11:15
Dan
Hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode with each conversation brings you into that collective so you know you are not alone.
00:01:11:17 – 00:01:46:22
Dan
Now, our theme for this episode, this podcast episode is celebrating Bebe Moore Campbell National Minority Mental Health Awareness Month. Bebe Moore Campbell was a prolific author, a leader, a visionary, and a mother. And as she was looking for resources for her daughter in terms of navigating mental health, she was looking at this organization called NAMI, and she went across town to attend a session called Family to Family.
00:01:47:00 – 00:02:19:04
Dan
Then she brought some other mothers back over to it and said, look at this, that is occurring here. And look at the great information that’s being shared. And she and these other friends of hers, other moms, they decided that this was so important that, Bebe Moore Campbell actually co-founded NAMI Urban LA. And as we think about that, the other thing I wanted to say is she recognized that advocacy was clearly very important.
00:02:19:04 – 00:02:48:20
Dan
And she recognized that it was missing in the African-American community. And so she really started knocking on the doors on Capitol Hill. And in 2008, Congress designated July as Bebe Moore Campbell National Minority Mental Health Awareness Month in honor of her trailblazing work addressing mental health disparities. She knew that silence, rooted in fear, shame and cultural barriers kept people from seeking care.
00:02:49:00 – 00:03:17:00
Dan
And she fought to change that through conversation and community and her work in addition to that with NAMI Urban LA. So that is a little bit about Bebe Moore Campbell. And I want to now talk about Dr Sheldon Jacobs. He’s a marriage and family therapist first and invited to serve on NAMI’s National Board of Directors, founded and chairs a coalition to address Southern Nevada’s shortage of mental health providers of color.
00:03:17:03 – 00:03:53:02
Dan
Welcome, Dr. Jacobs, so good for you to be here with us today. And thank you for giving your time to this important conversation. Now I’d like to introduce Dr. Judith Joseph. She’s a board-certified psychiatrist, principal investigator of her research lab, on the board of Let’s Talk Menopause and developed T.I.E.S. method for navigating mental health symptoms and menopause, gave the first congressional recording special on Caribbean American Mental Health in 2024 alongside Congresswoman Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick. Sheldon and Judith,
00:03:53:02 – 00:04:19:20
Dan
thank you so very much. As I said at the top of the podcast, and I want to say it again, thank you for joining this podcast and giving your time to what we call Hope Starts With Us, NAMI’s podcast. Through today’s episode, I’d love to learn more about what made you interested in mental health care as a career and why you believe mental health care for minoritized communities, minority communities is important.
00:04:19:22 – 00:04:35:19
Dan
That’s first. And then, building on those two is, as we honor Bebe Moore Campbell National Minority Mental Health Month and recognize it, Awareness Month, would each of you share your mental health story with us? So Judith, could we start with you, Dr. Joseph?
00:04:35:21 – 00:04:56:02
Dr. Joseph
Yes. So my mental health story is interesting because when I went to medical school, I was the first person in my family to graduate college and then go to medical school. So they really wanted me to be a “real doctor.” And I started off as an anesthesiologist and I found myself struggling with what I now know is high-functioning depression.
00:04:56:02 – 00:05:15:19
Dr. Joseph
Just feeling a lack of joy or a lack of pleasure in things. But on the outside, looking put together, looking successful. And I found my calling in mental health when I actually left the field of anesthesiology to study psychiatry. And when I told my family, you know, typical Caribbean family, they were like, “Why you want to go and work with crazy people?”
00:05:15:20 – 00:05:40:21
Dr. Joseph
That was what they said. But I had to explain to my community that mental health is something we all have. We all have mental health just like we all have physical health. So we have to take care of our mental health in order to prevent negative mental health outcomes. Right? And so, you know, it’s interesting because my work has led me to speak to people who never thought they had to think about their mental health.
00:05:40:23 – 00:06:14:09
Dr. Joseph
They didn’t realize that a lot of their physical ailments, a lot of the stress they were carrying in their body was actually related to unresolved trauma, unresolved past issues, and talking about mental health in a way that feels accessible, feels relatable, has been empowering for the communities that I work with. I teach a lot of doctors how to use social media and traditional media to explain mental health topics, and my platforms went viral online because when I started talking about mental health in a way that felt relatable and accessible, people wanted to know more about it.
00:06:14:09 – 00:06:31:15
Dr. Joseph
They wanted to figure out how to increase their joy. And I say that mental health belongs to all of us. It just looks different across cultures. You know, in the Caribbean, we eat spicy foods, we dance. And I explain that a lot of the things we do that we think are just part of our culture, they’re actually protective of our mental health.
00:06:31:15 – 00:06:48:13
Dr. Joseph
Like when we eat our roti and our curry that is decreasing inflammation in your brain. When you’re moving side to side and you’re dancing in the road, that’s actually causing the right brain to talk to the left brain and increase your joy and decrease your stress. And so talking about mental health in a way that feels authentic is a way to bring people in,
00:06:48:13 – 00:06:55:15
Dr. Joseph
when they feel as if maybe they shouldn’t be a part of the mental health conversation. They just need it to feel relatable to themselves.
00:06:55:17 – 00:07:16:00
Dan
You know, as you mention this, I want to I want to come back to this, you mentioned something that there’s such a logic model and there’s so much I can build on here. And I know we have a prescribed set of questions, but I am going to just build on what you said, Dr. Joseph. And you said, increase joy, decrease stress.
00:07:16:07 – 00:07:40:04
Dan
That’s a part of this–there’s a process here and there’s a method. There’s methodology to it. It’s just not just something that’s hiding out here. And it’s so important to understand that this is, this is all about your total health. And, kudos to you. You were an anesthesiologist and you weren’t feeling fulfilled, and you made the decision.
00:07:40:15 – 00:08:02:11
Dan
And I know that the peer pressure must have been significant. So how did you, and I’m going to come to Dr. Jacobs in a second, but did you feel any peer pressure? And you mentioned high functioning depression. So how, if you felt any peer pressure of leaving, you know, the field of anesthesiology to go into psychiatry?
00:08:02:11 – 00:08:04:00
Dan
How did you navigate that?
00:08:04:02 – 00:08:22:06
Dr. Joseph
You know, it’s interesting because a lot of the healers are unhealed. If you look at any emergency room, you look at any surgical office. These are people who are highly traumatized. We see death every day. We see pain every day. And we’re told to just get back in the trenches to go back and serve others and not think about ourselves.
00:08:22:06 – 00:08:40:14
Dr. Joseph
So the culture of healthcare and medicine is just ingrained to serve others while neglecting yourself. And so, you know, in my work with high functioning depression, I see a lot of high functioning depression across health care fields. I have doctors reaching out to me on DMs, nurses reaching out to me on all these social platforms saying “thank you.”
00:08:40:14 – 00:09:03:02
Dr. Joseph
You finally named something I’m experiencing because I was told to just keep pushing forward, but I’m lacking joy. And, you know, I don’t think I could keep going like this. And I think we need to acknowledge that you can be put together on the outside, but you could be struggling on the inside. And that depression and a whole host of mental health issues look different depending on your culture, depending on your industry, depending on how you’re raised, depending on your religion.
00:09:03:08 – 00:09:27:11
Dr. Joseph
So we want to be inclusive and embrace, you know, all of these groups in the mental health conversation or else they will be left out. And so for me, it was really being honest with myself and challenging people when they were saying, you know, you should be lucky to be here. How can you give up such a prestigious spot? And really staying true to what I was feeling, being true to what I was experiencing, a lack of joy.
00:09:27:13 – 00:09:52:23
Dr. Joseph
And it’s not a medical crisis, right? But it is an existential crisis. And it’s one that many of us don’t pay attention to. And I think that if we did invest more in joy, we’d realize that joyful people have better health. Joyful people have better careers. They have better relationships, they have better longevity. So it’s worth it to and to invest in your joy, because joyful people also tend to give back to their communities and so, you know, invest in joy.
00:09:53:00 – 00:10:00:15
Dr. Joseph
It doesn’t mean that, you know, you don’t have to also address, you know, serious mental health issues. But I also try to invest in joy.
00:10:00:17 – 00:10:24:08
Dan
You know, Dr. Joseph, thank you very much. You said a couple of things there. A lot of the healers are unhealed. I want to make sure that our listeners hear that a lot of the healers are unhealed. So what does that look like from the standpoint of them? And then invest in joy. So if there’s anything I want you to leave with right now from this conversation, to the listeners, is invest in joy.
00:10:24:17 – 00:10:45:05
Dan
So now let’s go to Dr. Jacobs and thank you, Dr. Joseph. So, Dr. Jacobs, you know, both of you had, options in terms of fields of interest, what made you go into mental health care? And then, would you mind building on that and sharing your mental health story?
00:10:45:07 – 00:11:06:23
Dr. Jacobs
Yes, absolutely. And first off, thank you for having me. Pleasure and honor to be on your pod, Dan, so thank you. So for me, I think–so my story is a bit unconventional in terms of what let me into this mental health space. You know, I went to undergrad as communications major. I had no thoughts of, you know, going into mental health.
00:11:07:01 – 00:11:29:14
Dr. Jacobs
However, during my second year of college, my second year undergrad, my first cousin of mine got really sick, and he ended up being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He was a year younger than me. And he was struggling to a point where, you know, he was going to start university, and that’s where he had his, you know, his psychotic break during his first semester.
00:11:29:23 – 00:11:50:05
Dr. Jacobs
So his parents had to go out to Texas and bring him back home, and it was just a rollercoaster, you know, for them, you know, in the years following that episode in college. And I remember going–I think it during one of my holiday breaks and going back home and visiting him.
00:11:50:05 – 00:12:12:06
Dr. Jacobs
And I almost didn’t recognize him. I mean, he had lost so much weight. He wasn’t eating, I mean, he was struggling significantly. And so, you know, I wanted to understand more of, you know, his struggles and what that looked like. And that’s kind of how I came to NAMI, because at the time, you know, he was in and out of hospitals, was struggling not to try to take his life several times.
00:12:12:08 – 00:12:38:05
Dr. Jacobs
And finally, you know, one of his hospitalizations, a nurse mentioned NAMI, and you know, my family was like, “What? What’s NAMI?” And they were on the fence because, you know, as a, you know, a Black family, many come to when it comes to mental health in particular, especially during this time, this is going back to like 98, 99, you know, mental health was something that, you know,there was a lot of taboo attached to it, a lot of stigma attached to it.
00:12:38:15 – 00:12:53:00
Dr. Jacobs
And so they were hesitant at first, but then they decided to, you know, to reach out. And we got plugged into a family-to-family support group. And my cousin got plugged into a peer-to-peer support group. And then, you know, the rest is history. I mean, that support really changed his life.
00:12:53:07 – 00:13:20:14
Dr. Jacobs
And just being in that community. And I remember, you know, being able to sit in on a couple of those groups with him, and it was just, the impact was so powerful. But before that, even. So I also had my own struggles, you know, with mental health. So when I was 14 years of age, I was involved in the gang, street gang in California, and I was involved in a, what should have been a drive-by shooting. Somebody tried to take my life and through God’s grace,
00:13:20:14 – 00:13:41:05
Dr. Jacobs
the bullets never left that gun. And however, the trauma, you know, from that incident, you know, still remains. And for ten years, you know, I didn’t– I didn’t address, you know, what was going on. And I didn’t address, you know, my mental health. Initially, I didn’t know what was going on for me. I don’t understand mental health. I didn’t understand, you know, what any of that was or what looked like, in terms of the symptoms and behaviors.
00:13:41:19 – 00:14:02:15
Dr. Jacobs
My response to that trauma. And so I kept it to myself. I didn’t tell anybody about what I was dealing with. And I was essentially suffering in silence. And as a result of that, you know, my relations were being impacted. And I was struggling in school. I was struggling in so many areas in my life.
00:14:02:16 – 00:14:21:13
Dr. Jacobs
And when I opted to go to grad school, because in between time, I was working for my aunt who owned group homes, and we had therapists who was working in the homes, and I was kind of like, look, I can I can do what he’s doing and be just as effective. And so that’s kind of also what propelled me to get into the field.
00:14:21:20 – 00:14:56:12
Dr. Jacobs
But one of the requirements in my doctoral program was we had to have 20 hours of individual therapy, and that was the first time where I addressed my trauma. And it was, it was life changing for me. And so, so, you know, I would say it’s twofold, just my own personal experience, when it came to just some of the things that I was exposed to and again, all the trauma and seeing my cousin and, you know, going through his sickness and, you know, so those are the two primary reasons personally and then professionally, I’m working in this group
00:14:56:12 – 00:15:08:00
Dr. Jacobs
home setting and seeing this therapist, and there’s all the great work he was doing with the kids that we were serving made me a believer, and made me want to go into the field of mental health.
00:15:08:02 – 00:15:40:21
Dan
Wow, what a story. And from that inflection point, when you were 14 to now, as well as, seeing what your family member, your cousin, was navigating, really was very impactful in terms of, your life decision and your career decision. Thank you very much, Dr. Jacobs. I want to ask you something else in terms of, in June, as part of our Community Health Equity Alliance work and the PAC, the Provider Pipeline Initiative, NAMI held an event with Young Doctors DC.
00:15:41:02 – 00:16:03:23
Dan
This event was designed to engage Black youth in grades eight through 12 and help them explore career pathways in mental health. You founded, Dr. Jacobs, you founded and chair a coalition that is doing similar work in Southern Nevada. Could you tell us more about what prompted you to start this initiative and what kind of impact have you seen so far?
00:16:04:01 – 00:16:24:13
Dr. Jacobs
Yes. Thank you for that question, Dan. In Nevada, we’re like last or next to last in just about every mental health metric we could think of. When it comes to the number of providers per capita, when it comes to access, you name it, we’re like at the bottom. And I was just tired of seeing that. As a state,
00:16:24:13 – 00:16:47:04
Dr. Jacobs
I know we can we do a lot better. And I know you always say this. You know, if you want to see the change, be the change. And so I took it upon myself to go out into the community. I was going out to the schools. I created this PowerPoint presentation, regarding, you know, or about the field of mental health and the different options if you want to be a psychiatrist or psychologist, know the differences between the two.
00:16:47:06 – 00:17:02:01
Dr. Jacobs
And I broke it down. And it started off as just me going into different schools, middle schools, high schools, even some of the junior colleges here in the community and talking about mental health. And then I found I was able to recruit some other clinicians of color. And that’s what we did for a couple of years.
00:17:02:01 – 00:17:37:04
Dr. Jacobs
And then from there, it turned into a full on collective. And so I have a collective of clinicians of color, male, female. It was about a group of about 130 or 40 people. And then I also have a group of Black male therapists. And so what was interesting about, you know, this coalition is, whenever and especially in our community, a youth of color especially, or even just a family that’s struggling, they are seeking a clinician of color.
00:17:37:06 – 00:17:56:20
Dr. Jacobs
They know where to turn to because of some of the information on some social media, some of the work that I’ve done in the community in terms of spreading the word. People can call me and they can reach out for support, because again, I do believe in the laws of attraction, and I believe [?] is huge when it comes to, when it comes to therapy
00:17:57:02 – 00:18:14:19
Dr. Jacobs
because therapy is so intimate. And I think,I always say this, that, you know, therapy– 80% is a relationship you have with a therapist. If the relationship is not there, it’s going to be hard to really move forward in a therapeutic, you know, relationship, if you will. So that’s why, you know, this was so near and dear to me.
00:18:14:19 – 00:18:32:15
Dr. Jacobs
And so in terms of the impact, Dan, it’s one of those things where, I mean, in some ways it’s kind of hard to quantify, but at the same time, you know, every now and then, I get a phone call or my bump into you know, a student that I spoke to some years ago, you know, they’ll say, hey, you know what?
00:18:32:15 – 00:18:50:21
Dr. Jacobs
I went to grad school because of you, Dr. Jacobs, or I, you know, because of you, you know, I decided, you know, that I want to be a therapist. And so I get those responses from time to time. And so, which leads me to believe that, you know, the impact is real. Again, when it comes to, like, actual numbers, I don’t I don’t have that data.
00:18:50:21 – 00:19:05:07
Dr. Jacobs
But I do know that, you know, it is impactful. Especially my phone is ringing several times a week for families or individuals seeking therapy. And I’m able to, you know, connect them with a clinician of color. And that for me, you know, is everything.
00:19:05:08 – 00:19:20:10
Dan
Well, you know, what you’ve also done there in the community is through your work you now have a session on a local TV news show every week, if I understand correctly. Right, Dr. Jacobs?
00:19:20:10 – 00:19:41:05
Dr. Jacobs
Yes, actually Dan, so it’s a column in the Las Vegas Review Journal. And so, from my understanding, I am one of the first columns in the country for a newspaper that has over 250,000 subscribers, it’s our largest news outlet in the entire state of Nevada. And so, and how it came about was, again, the importance of using our voices, advocating for ourselves.
00:19:41:06 – 00:19:56:19
Dr. Jacobs
I was– I wasn’t happy with, you know, the lack of coverage, the lack of mental health coverage that was in this newspaper. And so I kept reaching out to the editors and complaining. And then finally, one day, they blessed me with the opportunity to have my own column, which is called Mental Health Matters.
00:19:56:21 – 00:20:21:20
Dan
Congratulations. That’s impact. And you’re making a difference in so many ways. So and whether it’s one, two or three that say they have chosen a certain field or they’re getting care because of their interaction with you, congratulations. So and, you know, stay the course. So, Dr. Joseph, I want to come to you now as a psychiatrist who immigrated to the US from Trinidad.
00:20:21:22 – 00:20:50:14
Dan
And they say, Trinidad, but I’m going to say Trinidad, who grew up in a religious home, one area you focus on is supporting mental health for Caribbean American folks. How do you tailor the care you provide to Caribbean American people’s experiences. Their experience is a little different, their level of trust, knowledge and insight in terms of mental health or mental illness may look or feel different.
00:20:50:14 – 00:20:53:00
Dan
So how do you tailor your care?
00:20:53:02 – 00:21:22:07
Dr. Joseph
Well, it’s a great question. And I use a lot of acronyms to help people to remember these tools. And, when I gave the first congressional talk on Caribbean American mental health, I used something called the CARIB method. So C.A.R.I.B. There’s a bear in Trinidad with Carib, but it’s not based on that bear. But C is for community because many times when you immigrate to a new country, you lose track of your connection.
00:21:22:07 – 00:21:43:03
Dr. Joseph
And we know that human connections are really, really important for longevity, for total health. And so tapping into your community is really important. That could be a community in church, that could be your neighbor. And when you leave a close knit community to come to a new country, sometimes you stay isolated. There’s this fear of us versus them.
00:21:43:03 – 00:22:03:15
Dr. Joseph
Let’s stick to ourselves. But I really encourage people to reach out and branch out and find connections and tap into the community. The A in CARIB is attitude. A lot of times we have this notion that, you know, mental health is for crazy people. It’s not for us, but we have to really challenge this and say that, listen, we have to take care of our mental health.
00:22:03:15 – 00:22:21:19
Dr. Joseph
We have to changed our attitude towards mental health because we all have physical health and mental health. And so really challenge your attitude towards mental health. And then the R is ritual. A lot of the rituals that we use back home, we lose track of. Such things, such as, you know, walking down to the beach because we have access to it there.
00:22:21:19 – 00:22:37:07
Dr. Joseph
We don’t have as much access to nature. So try and try and find your nature here, be it a plant that you have or you know, if you can invest in goldfish or anything that keeps you around nature walking to the park, you know, walking by a river in your big city, those are things are important.
00:22:37:07 – 00:22:53:22
Dr. Joseph
Rituals back home are things like dancing. You know, we don’t tend to tap into those cultures because we’re in a new country. Forget those things. So don’t forget your rituals. If your ritual was going to church every Sunday and that was giving you a sense of calm and purpose, you know, you may have to find that here.
00:22:54:12 – 00:23:16:18
Dr. Joseph
And then, the I is intention. So in everything that you do, try to be intentional. you know, if it’s going to be meeting up with others, you know, don’t be on your phone, you know, really try to connect. if you’re going to be connecting with your community, you know, don’t say, well, I’m from this island and you’re from that island and we’re going to stick together, try and like, really be intentional about why you’re there.
00:23:17:10 – 00:23:35:21
Dr. Joseph
And then the B is our body. The B in CARIB. A lot of times we lose sight of the things that kept us healthy from back home. You know, we were eating fresh fish. We were eating fresh fruit every day. But then we come to another country, we’re eating highly processed foods. And we know a lot of the data showing that what we eat actually can impact our mental health.
00:23:36:03 – 00:24:06:09
Dr. Joseph
Things like leafy greens, blueberries, foods that have rich natural sources of melatonin like walnuts and bananas all support our mental health. But we lose sight of the things that really used to help us to stay mentally fit and physically fit. Things like even walking. We get so sedentary. Back home we would walk and go to the store. Here we drive and, you know, take public transportation so, you know, do little things like taking the subway, one last stop and walking the way if it’s safe or trying the stairs instead of the elevator.
00:24:06:11 – 00:24:24:20
Dr. Joseph
All of those things really support, you know, our mind body connection. So the CARIB method, again, it’s something we all have access to. It’s something that doesn’t cost money, but we just forget about these things that support us. And having these reminders and this type of methodology can help us to all feel a bit more empowered. And it feels more accessible.
00:24:24:22 – 00:24:48:19
Dan
I love it and CARIB is so important. I hope everyone heard CARIB: community, attitude, rituals, intention and body. And as we talk about attitude, mindset, I hope you all heard what Dr. Joseph was offering to you. And Dr. Joseph, ou know, my neighbor as I grew up, this Ms. Francis was from Trinidad, and she would say, “Danny, where’s your dad? Where’s your dad?”
00:24:48:19 – 00:25:09:11
Dan
And I remember when her family would come over from Trinidad to visit. It was it was that community. And it was so good. And then when I went to– I’m also the first to go to college. And just as you were talking, I just thought about this, I played tennis in college and I played against a guy, Woody.
00:25:09:17 – 00:25:35:22
Dan
And Woody was always so positive and his nature was always very good. I think he had everything you just mentioned. I think he had community. He had attitude, he had rituals. He had intention. He had–he took care of his body, his rituals. Everything he ate was fresh. And he would always be in this collective of other people and just always worked on his mindset.
00:25:35:22 – 00:26:01:16
Dan
And I really didn’t think about it until just now, because, you know, we were always like, we’re getting ready to play this match. And there’s this stress and, you know this nervous energy. But Woody was always very positive and, never seemed to let that stress get to him. But I think it’s because he had those five elements that you just mentioned in terms of, in his way of navigating the world.
00:26:01:16 – 00:26:03:03
Dan
So thank you for sharing that.
00:26:03:07 – 00:26:23:03
Dr. Joseph
Yes. Well, the reason I share these things is because we often tend to focus on, okay, the mental health issue happen. Let’s address it. But if we use these things as preventative ways, then we have, you know, a chance of preventing severe mental health issues or actually mitigating some of the symptoms. So a lot of the work is in prevention because many people don’t have access to therapists.
00:26:23:03 – 00:26:29:17
Dr. Joseph
So at least one thing they can do while waiting for that therapist, to get off that therapy waitlist, is to do these preventative measures.
00:26:29:22 – 00:27:01:06
Dan
So may I ask you another question that building on that in terms of prevention and many of our women will carry the weight of their family, the weight of what’s going on, on their shoulders. And what are you seeing and how are you helping women in the community navigate mental health and navigate their well-being as they look to kind of be that advocate and that support structure for their entire family.
00:27:01:08 – 00:27:21:09
Dr. Joseph
It’s a great question. And yes, women are the caregivers. In my study that I published, the first peer-reviewed study in high functioning depression, in the world, the caregivers were the ones that were most at risk for lacking joy, for having something called anhedonia, which literally just means a lack of joy, pleasure, and interest.
00:27:21:11 – 00:27:44:04
Dr. Joseph
And you know, when you think about it, caregivers tend to be women and they’re thinking about other people over themselves. But remember how I said that investing and joy is so important? Because when you invest in your personal joy, your health is better, your relationships are better, your work is better, and one of the tools that I teach the women that I work with is something called the biopsychosocial.
00:27:44:09 – 00:28:05:19
Dr. Joseph
Dr. Jacobs is probably very familiar with it because all of us in health care learn this biopsychosocial model. And I say that biopsychosocial is like a fingerprint. We all have a fingerprint, but all of our fingerprints are unique. And so with the women that I talk to I say look at your hand and I want you to tell yourself that you are built with the DNA for joy.
00:28:05:20 – 00:28:39:01
Dr. Joseph
It is your birthright, but you just forget it and try and understand your unique fingerprint, your unique biopsychosocial. So biologically, many of the women that I work with, if they’re in midlife or they’re, you know, approaching midlife, their hormones, their hormonal fluctuations can get in the way of their points of joy. And when you go through, let’s say things like, you know, your menses, postpartum depression, perimenopause, menopause, those hormonal fluctuations can cause symptoms that may look like depression or anxiety.
00:28:39:06 – 00:28:59:07
Dr. Joseph
So learning about what’s happening in your body and trying to address those symptoms can actually help you to feel better biologically. And that’s one of the things that women struggle with. But the other thing that women struggle with biologically in the biopsychosocial, so biologically, these are medical conditions or things that run in your family, are autoimmune diseases.
00:28:59:09 – 00:29:20:17
Dr. Joseph
Women make up 80% of folks struggling with autoimmune diseases. That’s a lot. And when you have–your body has all that inflammation that also attacks your brain. So it’s really hard to be joyful when your brain is under that much stress. So you may have to focus on addressing those biological risk factors. Psychology in the biopsychosocial of your own fingerprint,
00:29:20:17 – 00:29:40:00
Dr. Joseph
right, what are the risk factors that women have? Women tend to have a lot of traumas. You know, 1 in 4 girls has reported, you know, sexual traumas. That’s really high. You know, like, when you think about that on your fingers, on your hand, that’s 1 in 4 is very high. So we have to address the traumas that, if you’re in fight or flight, it’s hard to be joyful.
00:29:40:00 – 00:29:59:09
Dr. Joseph
It’s hard to do anything if you’re constantly revved up. So acknowledging those traumas in women, and also other things that women tend to go through, like they get underdiagnosed with ADHD, although the rates of ADHD are equivalent in girls and boys. So you have women struggling with un unsupported ADHD throughout their lives wondering what’s wrong with you?
00:29:59:11 – 00:30:20:10
Dr. Joseph
Why you can’t multitask when you have undertreated conditions? And then socially, what’s happening in the world for a woman? You know, it’s hard to balance your work life, taking care of your kids, taking care of your parents. The demands on you socially are high, yet you get paid less. So not only do you take on more, but you’re compensated less.
00:30:20:12 – 00:30:41:01
Dr. Joseph
And socially, you know, especially Black women go through micro-aggressions every day and they have to show up, you know, things in their environment for Black women. They don’t have as much access to nature. You don’t have as much access to, you know, certain health care things that you should be having, resources that you should be having access to.
00:30:41:11 – 00:31:06:12
Dr. Joseph
And so when you think about the social things in your life, you’re also thinking about your habits, you know, the relationships that you’re around your workplaces. So all of those social factors are areas where you could be losing your points of joy. So with my–women I work with, I actually ask them to write out their Venn diagrams of their biopsychosocial so they understand where they’re losing their joy, and then they realize, okay, this is the area I need to focus on.
00:31:06:12 – 00:31:27:15
Dr. Joseph
If you’re someone who’s highly traumatized, maybe that’s where you need to put your efforts. If you’re someone with uncontrolled medical conditions, well, that’s where you got to put your efforts. If you’re someone who’s in a social environment that is toxic, well, you can eat all the kale you want, but it’s not going to change your environment, right? So understanding your biopsychosocial, your unique fingerprint, will allow you to be strategic in where you’re losing your points of joy.
00:31:27:15 – 00:31:42:00
Dr. Joseph
So you’re truly understanding the science of your happiness. And I say that because we’re all trying to try to be happy. We’re chasing happy. But we don’t even understand where we’re losing our joy. So how can we become happier? So understand the science of your happiness and use the biopsychosocial tool. It’s very, very empowering.
00:31:42:02 – 00:32:03:09
Dan
You know, Dr. Joseph, you just mentioned something that made me think of a book, The Body Keeps the Score, and it seems to fit into a lot of what you were talking about. You talked about autoimmune diseases. You talked about undiagnosed ADHD. And you talked about a number of things that, the body does keep score, doesn’t it?
00:32:03:11 – 00:32:13:18
Dr. Joseph
Absolutely. I love that book. And it really, I think, highlights the mind body connection because we often think, oh, the brain is here, the body’s here, but it’s all connected and you’re absolutely right about that.
00:32:14:08 – 00:32:42:03
Dan
Thank you. So I want to ask you now both a question is, what do you wish mental health care providers knew about communities of color and minority mental health? You’re both in fields, psychology and psychiatry, therapy and the like that there’s underrepresentation, tremendous underrepresentation. I think it’s 2 to 3%, Black women that are psychiatrists.
00:32:42:13 – 00:32:57:04
Dan
So as we think about the environment of mental health care providers, what do you wish that these providers knew about communities of color and minority mental health? Dr. Jacobs, would you like to go first?
00:32:57:06 – 00:33:32:14
Dr. Jacobs
Yes, certainly. I would love to go first. This is a profound question because I feel like, in seeing some of the numbers, especially amongst our youth, for our Black youth, where suicide rates have tripled in the last couple of years. I feel like there is a lack of understanding. I feel that providers in particular can to do more when it comes to the, their training or through education or to through immersion, learning more about our communities. And granted,
00:33:32:14 – 00:33:54:11
Dr. Jacobs
yes, we’re also different as well. And so, but I do think it is very important that, providers, you know, have a, you know, a better understanding of who we are as people. Some of the traumas that we, that we face on a regular basis, some of our, you know, our histories, I think it’s very important to have that understanding.
00:33:54:19 – 00:34:22:09
Dr. Jacobs
One of the things I see a lot of times in my space–I was just talking about with fellow colleagues of mine. A lot of times, you know, there is just this general lack of acknowledgment, validation when it comes to certain challenges and struggles that we face. For instance, as a Black male, just the struggles that I go through on a daily basis, being a Black man that’s educated. I’m a threat to so many people.
00:34:22:21 – 00:34:51:07
Dr. Jacobs
And, you know, I remember seeing a therapist, you know, some years ago, and it was a, you know, it was a white female therapist. And, you know, she couldn’t quite understand my flight or my struggle. You know, being overlooked for jobs and promotions because of certain things, like just that. Being an educated Black man.
00:34:51:21 – 00:35:10:02
Dr. Jacobs
And so, so, yeah. So I think it’s, I think it’s, I think that’s very important, you know, and for any provider for that matter, you know, understanding, you know, the populations the individuals that you’re treating, the individuals that you’re working with. That having that understanding, that [? ] everything because there’s so much, there’s so much to all of us, right?
00:35:10:08 – 00:35:20:12
Dr. Jacobs
We’re all so very unique. But the you know, you know, immersing yourself in various cultures and just have an understanding when it comes to, you know, various people across many different cultures.
00:35:20:17 – 00:35:42:06
Dan
Yeah. Thank you for that. And it brought up to, you know, that acknowledgment and those experiences. And I go back to what you shared earlier in the podcast about at 14, and then, realizing that trauma later on in life. And what’s so interesting in this field is a lot of times, individuals that are the experts will be addressing the symptom.
00:35:42:11 – 00:36:07:23
Dan
And many times for us, we need them to get to the root cause, because addressing that symptom, and this is where we get to what’s called adverse childhood experiences. And it’s so unique that the caregiver and the professional, the care they give in terms of their mental health support and engagement is very important, to get to that root cause.
00:36:07:23 – 00:36:13:19
Dan
And a lot of times that’s an area of opportunity as well. So thank you for sharing that.
00:36:13:20 – 00:36:37:23
Dr. Jacobs
Just real quick to that point. So I was, you know, recently diagnosed with prostate cancer. And once I–after receiving the diagnosis, so for a few months after receiving that diagnosis, I was struggling mentally. I mean, my mental health was I mean, it was it was through the roof. And one of the things that, you know, I found that was very important was going back to that joy piece.
00:36:37:23 – 00:37:01:18
Dr. Jacobs
I think that that’s is everything. Because, you know, when I was going through that, you know, I could have chose like, you know what, I’m going to be in this negativity. I’m going to, you know, I’m going to have a pity party for myself and question this and question that. And, you know point fingers and be angry and any other, and I realized that, you know, when I had that mindset, you know, it brought me, you know, through a deeper depression.
00:37:02:01 – 00:37:31:18
Dr. Jacobs
But then when I was positive and tried to do everything, you know, just to think positively about my situation, and how, you know, this is the opportunity for me to be able to spread awareness to other men, dealing with this disease and so that they can get screened and checked and doing all the things they needed to, on a preventive standpoint as well, you know, I started to heal and I started to feel better, and I started to experience joy again, because I made a conscious effort to say, you know what?
00:37:31:18 – 00:37:49:03
Dr. Jacobs
I’m not going to put myself in that state of mind. I’m going to be positive. And granted it wasn’t always that easy. But, you know, but I did make it a concerted effort to be positive and to have positive thoughts and whenever negative thoughts enter my mind, quickly switch that negative thought with a positive thought.
00:37:49:03 – 00:37:51:03
Dr. Jacobs
So I just wanted to add that.
00:37:51:05 – 00:38:14:09
Dan
I appreciate that. And for our men that are listening, you know, go to the doctor, get checked. What Dr. Jacobs said, just shared with you, he shared for a reason. And thank you for sharing that. I really do appreciate it. And, I’m so glad you’re on the side of joy. And that it’s helping as you’re navigating, Dr. Jacobs.
00:38:14:09 – 00:38:24:01
Dan
Thank you for that. Dr. Joseph, I want to come to you and ask you, what do you wish mental health care providers knew about communities of color and minority mental health?
00:38:24:03 – 00:38:53:14
Dr. Joseph
Well, I think the numbers, the statistics that Dr. Jacobs brought up, I don’t think many people know that unless you make it a point to go and look up these alarming rising rates in our youth, you know, the statistics for our Black mothers and postpartum depression, if you don’t, you know, take it upon yourself to educate yourself about these new numbers, then you’re still operating on a path that said, oh, Black people had better numbers in mental health, you know, which we know is not true.
00:38:53:18 – 00:39:22:14
Dr. Joseph
We are the most highly traumatized group of people, and we have high rates of depression and anxiety, and we’re most likely to be underserved. So I think number one is educating yourself because when you know these things, then you look out for people who need help, who need support. The other thing is that, you know, when you’re approaching our community, you try to use another lens because, you know, giving advice to a youth who’s a Black youth and saying, okay, well, you got to set boundaries and you got to cut off so-and-so.
00:39:22:16 – 00:39:52:20
Dr. Joseph
Listen, our strength has historically been in our community, so we need to approach things differently. We need connection. So, you know, some of the advice that’s being given is not a culturally appropriate for our community. So I think that that is really important. And lastly, you know, growing up and training in these prestigious institutions, I very rarely and I don’t know, Dr. Jacobs, if you had this experience, I very rarely learned about the forefathers and foresisters that look like us who were in mental health.
00:39:52:22 – 00:40:11:15
Dr. Joseph
And I think that that would have been very empowering, you know, to know about, because, you know, the person who was–who did most of the research on dementia was a Black man, right? Why weren’t we taught this? There are there are these trailblazers, these, you know, Black psychiatrist, Black therapists, Black psychologists who we just don’t even learn about.
00:40:11:15 – 00:40:23:19
Dr. Joseph
And I think it’s important for us to know that history and to talk about it within our field because we’ve always been here. We have not always been celebrated or acknowledged, but we’ve always been here. So mental health is ours, too.
00:40:23:21 – 00:40:56:18
Dan
Wow, that’s so important. And if you, you know, knowing that legacy, understanding that legacy and knowing some of the history of individuals that come before you that have done incredible work in this space, it’s validating and it’s reinforcing to all mental health professionals. And it would be wonderful if that was included in the curriculum and the development.
00:40:56:18 – 00:41:23:05
Dan
So the both, both of you have just added so much to this podcast. Thank you. And we always end our podcast with one last question and we set it up this way: The world can be a difficult place, and sometimes it’s hard to hold on to hope. That’s why with each episode we dedicate the last couple of minutes of our podcast to a special segment called Hold On to Hope.
00:41:23:07 – 00:41:35:16
Dan
Can you would you tell us what helps each of you hold on to hope? And Dr. Joseph, I want to come to you first. What helps you hold on to hope?
00:41:35:18 – 00:41:52:05
Dr. Joseph
Well, you know how I said I often ask my clients to look at their hand and tell themselves that, like, you’re born with the DNA for joy. It is your birthright. You know, really get to know yourself. There’s only one you, and there will only ever be one you. I mean, that always gives me chills, you know?
00:41:52:09 – 00:42:10:10
Dr. Joseph
So take the time to understand the signs of your happiness. Understand where you’re losing your points of joy, and then you can really focus on the areas where you can add that joy back because there is only one you and you’re here for a reason. And I use a tool called the Five V’s. Number one, the first V is validate how you feel.
00:42:10:10 – 00:42:33:04
Dr. Joseph
Validate and accept it, good or bad, without judgment. Vent it. Express how you feel. And that could be through writing. It could be through talking, through prayer, through singing. But get it out. Through crying. That’s another way we don’t really utilize that one, but just get that emotion out. The third is values tap into things that give you meaning and purpose, like your family of faith, the community.
00:42:33:06 – 00:42:56:06
Dr. Joseph
The fourth is vitals, you only get one body. So take care of yourself. You know all those things I mentioned eating well, moving, you know, protecting your brain from too much screen information. All that stuff is protective of your health. And the fifth is vision. Celebrate your wins. So when you finish listening to this podcast, say, I didn’t have to listen, but I took the time to be curious about my happiness.
00:42:56:06 – 00:43:14:15
Dr. Joseph
I invested in this time and plan–and celebrate that joy in the future. So that’s a part of vision. So the Five V’s can be very, very helpful. And there’s five fingers, right? So that’s why the number five shows up across the world. And you can tap into one of these, 1 or 2 every day. Don’t do all five at once, but it’ll help you to reclaim that joy.
00:43:14:17 – 00:43:38:05
Dan
I love it. Thank you. And validate how you feel. Vent it. Values, tap into your values. Know your values. Vitals. Take care of yourself. And last vision. Celebrate your wins. This is fantastic. So, Doc Jacobs, want to come to you now and ask you what, helps you hold on to hope?
00:43:38:07 – 00:43:58:18
Dr. Jacobs
I think for me, there’s three things. First is anchor, the finding, the finding my anchor. And for us, you know, it look differently. For me, my anchor is my faith. So whenever the storms are going and the waves are getting you know, higher and higher, I rely on my anchor to help keep me grounded.
00:43:59:03 – 00:44:20:13
Dr. Jacobs
And another, the second one, is the coping tools. And Dr. Joseph touched upon this earlier in terms of, you know, you know, having those tools, using those tools proactively. It’s very important. I think, that, you know, when we use it proactively, it kind of helps build that immunity for our mental health, which prevents or averts, like, you know, significant mental health challenges from happening.
00:44:20:13 – 00:44:40:13
Dr. Jacobs
If you are proactive in many instances. So for me, I’m a runner. I love to run. That helps my mental health. I also love music. I listen to some good music, can take me to a place, take me back, you know, to some, some times that, you know, were, you know, positive for me. Very healing for me.
00:44:40:21 – 00:45:09:17
Dr. Jacobs
And then the third, for me, essentially is community. You know, community is so powerful. And you know, I think one of the benefits of NAMI is, you know, we are, you know, built on community. We’ve been built on community and empower our community. And I know going through some of my struggles, whether it be my, my, my past mental health struggles with mental stress, or you know, some of the recent depressive symptoms I experienced, you know, when I was goin through this cancer situation.
00:45:10:01 – 00:45:20:06
Dr. Jacobs
You know, I’ve learned that community and the power community, you know, has really empowered me, has really helped me to heal. So definitely, definitely grateful for that.
00:45:20:08 – 00:45:43:23
Dan
Thank you very much. And I just want to say to both of you all, you just, you just shared so much and really, empowered our listeners with some insight, some tools and some hope, for how they can navigate their well-being. So thank you for that. This has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI,
00:45:43:23 – 00:46:34:12
Dan
the National Alliance on Mental Illness. Representation, mentorship, and opportunity matter. Learn more about NAMI’s outreach to Black and African ancestry communities through the Community Health Equity Alliance at www.chea.nami.org. If you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI HelpLine and find local resources, visit NAMI.org/help. Text “NAMI” to 62640 or dial nine 800-950-NAMI. Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use, or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988Lifeline.org.
00:46:34:14 – 00:46:38:02
Dan
I’m Dan Gillison, your host. Thanks for listening and be well.
